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Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss - Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community

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Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

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  • Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

    Here is an update on how heat retention changed in my oven when the entry materials changed. The first number is at the close of the oven after the last wood has burned significantly down. After Pizza. The second number in each set is 24 hours later, the third is 48 and the forth is at 72 hours.

    The first set of numbers are my first high temp fire at the end of curing. What I’d like you to note is the quicker loss of heat related to the second set of numbers. These second set of numbers are a few firings removed from curing. I attribute the change here to the continued drying of the base.

    850 400 230 140
    850 500 385 245
    850 350 200
    850 500 400 250 - ? - ? -and 108F 7 days later.

    Now compare the second set of numbers to the third set and you’ll note that the heat retention drops significantly in the third set. This change is attributed to a few things, but the major change relates to replacing the front entry floor brick with soapstone. This floor continues under the insulated door and up against the oven floor but does not continue into the oven.

    Now compare the fourth set of numbers to the second and third set and you’ll note that the heat retention is now better than any of the preceding set. The soapstone that ran under the insulated door has been replaced with the original firebrick, essentually back to the same original, as built, configuration.

    I think that the positive change in heat retention relative to the second set of numbers comes from the additional drying of the concrete base. When the forth and third set are compared the retention change is due to the much higher heat transfer rate of the soapstone, under the door, when compared to the firebrick. Soapstone has a 6X faster heat transfer rate when compared to brick.

    My next set of numbers will be after replacing the firebrick under the door with a 1 inch break of rigid insulation board.

    Chris
    Last edited by SCChris; 07-03-2010, 02:20 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

    Nice data Chris!

    Stone is generally much more conductive than bricks and your data clearly illustrates that. I tend to come to your conclusion also about refractory humidity being a likely source of variation. My experience with my oven makes me a big believer in heat breaks around the hearth.

    Thanks!
    Jay

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    • #3
      Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

      I think heat breaks are worthwhile as well. Easy to do and can be done without anyone knowing the difference. I made 45deg angle cuts to the side face of each brick on either side of my break joint and filled the gap with very loose perlcrete. The brick contact area between the joint is only a couple of mm.

      Side view below.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by wlively; 06-30-2010, 05:47 PM.
      Wade Lively

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      • #4
        Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

        I'm now at the stage of laying my floor and this idea of a heat break sounds intriguing.

        Obviously insulation board is not rated for direct flame exposure so how do you protect the top of your floor's heat break from fire, food, and wear and tear?
        My Oven Thread: http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/i...rio-12842.html

        My Picasa Photo Album: http://picasaweb.google.ca/davidort/...eat=directlink

        My Food Blog that includes posts about the oven build: http://www.foodwithlegs.com

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        • #5
          Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

          I used insulating bricks as my thermal break and veneered them with firebrick veneers so they appear as full bricks.

          George
          George

          My 34" WFO build

          Weber 22-OTG / Ugly Drum Smoker / 34" WFO

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          • #6
            Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

            I'll run the board a bit low as a 1 inch break. I also have been toying with the idea of using the board and then facing it with a veneer of firebrick, like fxpose has done. Since this area doesn't get direct flame and as long as the surface is a bit low rather than high I think it'll be fine. As for food, hmmm? With the solid surface in the entry area, I'm still much better as far as cleaning than the firebrick surface.

            Chris

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            • #7
              Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

              I now have a 2cm slab of granite in the entry and a break made out of 2 inch rigid insulation board. I profiled the board to create a bench for the granite and still allow a half inch of separation between the backend of the entry slab and the internal brick hearth. Below this bench the board retains the full 2 inch width. The board fits snugly against the oven brickwork in the entryway and the top surface is slightly lower than the granite and hearth floor levels. This slight drop in height allows cookware to slide over the break without actually touching the board material, this is working as intended.

              On Sunday I ran a good long fire and cooked a few pizzas. After cooking the last pizza a chocolate chip desert pizza on a 700 degree hearth, I shut the door and was registering 650F on the FB door dial thermometer.

              Here are the readings over the following 72hours.

              650 450 350 240

              The break definitely makes a difference with regard to loss through the entry floor. At 24 and 48 hours, I could feel that the granite entry floor at the outside base of the doorway was warm to the touch. What this tells me that I haven’t shut down the heat transfer as far as I’d like or as I had hoped, but warm is better than hot. The numbers are better with oven heat loss in the 100F drop per day area on the second to third and third to fourth day periods. I’ll look tonight and check the numbers, but I don’t expect much good info since I loaded the oven with wood to dry for the next run. I don’t think the break needs further tinkering and at this point the door’s, less than tight, fit in the doorway rebate is now the weak link and where I think I can make the biggest efficiency advance.

              I’ll be tightening up my doorway, with standard oven gasket material, to minimize any airflow in and out of the oven. I think I can find free gasket material at the local appliance store recycled from ovens that have been replaced with new units. This material is stable at the oven's "self cleaning" temperatures of 900F degree or so area. I’ll only be closing the oven with the door after a “completed” pizza run. The oven will have had some time to moderate heat since the pre-pizza big fire stage. I’m betting that the bricks in the top of the arch will be in the 850F or so area and well within the working parameters of the gasket material.

              Related to the firewood, I’m burning oak at the moment rather than the almond that I had been able to get. I much prefer the almond over the oak. My feeling is that the bark on the oak tends to produce smoke without much caloric benefit and the almond has a very thin covering of bark. The oak is harvested from what looks like some sort of beetle kill so I don’t feel too bad about using it, but I do prefer the almond.

              Chris
              PS Photos to come later
              Last edited by SCChris; 09-09-2010, 08:26 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                I agree about the benefit of a heat break. Advice about insulation being so important with the oven build also tends to ignore the significant amount of heat conducted to the outside, both through the floor and the oven entry. I believe that the entry should also have a heat break. I use 10 mm of vermicrete to insulate the outer arch from the inner parts of the oven. This has an additional benefit of reducing cracking problems of the outer arch from mechanical thermal expansion because of the inner parts expanding and causing pressure against the outer arch, as well as the problem of thermal differential.It also leaves the outer arch cooler to touch because of the reduced conductivity.
                Kindled with zeal and fired with passion.

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                • #9
                  Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                  One part of the heat curve over time that is interesting is the first 24 hours. In this period the temps really drop. My expectation is that although the oven seems to be saturated it's not. That the oven is clear of soot doesn't really indicate the oven being fully charged. I wish I had temps taken over the period in 15 minute intervals, I'd love to see the curve. I know that the higher the material temps the faster the heat flow is going to be. I wonder how long it would really take to charge the oven to the point where the first 24 hours looses half as much. I also wonder if the oven could be kept in the 200F area with some small heater what that might do for the curve. The 200 to 250F area would sure open up the wood curing and low and slow cooking arena. This last burn, when the temps got down to these levels, I did some spare ribs and a sholder roast, so good. Tonight it's tacos with the roast.



                  Chris
                  Last edited by SCChris; 09-11-2010, 06:33 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                    early next week I will be going to my firebrick dealer to purchase everything. While I was there last week, I saw that they had a insulating firebrick, very light weight. Kind of like firebrick and styrofoam. would you suggest that I use that for my inner arch, as well as the heat break on the transition between the oven floor and the entryway?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                      I used insulating firebricks for my vent support and in the vent landing area for the thermal break. As these bricks are very brittle I mortared regular firebrick veneers to them as the finished surface.

                      Edit: Oops...I just realized I already posted an almost identical reply (post #5) to this thread several weeks ago...
                      Last edited by fxpose; 09-10-2010, 04:24 PM.
                      George

                      My 34" WFO build

                      Weber 22-OTG / Ugly Drum Smoker / 34" WFO

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                        Because of the rough surface of the insulating bricks and the fact that they abrade easily, they are probably not a good choice for the area in front of the floor. I can see a lot of cheese getting stuck there. They would probably be ok for the sides and the top of the arch though provided you don't keep bashing at them with bits of wood too often.
                        Kindled with zeal and fired with passion.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                          I think FX and David have it right, as long as you use the insulating brick in “no wear” zones or veneer them, they should be a fine break. Once you get to the floor, you need to think about durability. The movement of wood going in and cast iron cookware going in and out is going to breakup something that’s too wide or too high relative to the floor or not supported.

                          The insulating brick is used in kilns and is replaced from time to time when needed, I don't have any idea how it'll hold up over time.

                          If you use this brick, run it a bit low and use the oven floor to support and protect it. If I build another oven I’ll build the oven separate from the outer arch and isolate with some thickness, half an inch or so, of rigid board. I’d need to inquire about direct flame and the board. It may need a veneer of firebrick to protect it at the arch to chimney transition. I think a veneer over the board could help to integrate the look and protect the board. Remember that an inch of board is equal to 10 or more inches of brick. An inch of Insulating brick is about 7 inches of brick. How the doorway fits into the equation is the next trick. It needs to stop any air and heat flow at the thermal break.


                          Soap Stone 6.4 W/mK
                          Brick between 0.98 and 1.13 W/m.K
                          Insulating Brick at 600F 0.14 W/m.K
                          Calcium Silicate insulating board at 600F 0.097 W/m.K


                          Chris
                          Last edited by SCChris; 09-10-2010, 07:47 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                            Chris,
                            My solution was to cast the flue gallery in one piece with castable. I designed it quite thin so it doesn't rob too much heat from the dome and I created a heat break between it and the outer arch using a 5:1 vermicrete expansion joint about 10 mm wide.
                            Kindled with zeal and fired with passion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Heat transfer metrics - under door heat loss

                              Originally posted by fxpose View Post
                              I used insulating firebricks for my vent support and in the vent landing area for the thermal break. As these bricks are very brittle I mortared regular firebrick veneers to them as the finished surface.

                              Edit: Oops...I just realized I already posted an almost identical reply (post #5) to this thread several weeks ago...
                              Most of the pictures of the heat breaks discussed lately have left me guessing.....Would you be so kind as to post some pictures of the laminated veneer portions of your break? Do you have any intermediate pictures that might show the process you used? I've seen your finished pictures. Thanks George
                              Lee B.
                              DFW area, Texas, USA

                              If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is Here.
                              Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is here.
                              An album showing our Thermal Breaks is Here.

                              I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.

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