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Boule - first effort

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  • Boule - first effort

    With all you guys discussing grignes and lames and docking and etc... well I decided to try to expand my sourdough repetoire a bit. So here's a first effort at the boule from the FB e-book - the two loaves at the front. Not quite like in the book, but they could be a lot worse.

    On day one the dough wouldn't rise for ages - after 7 hours I got fed up and put them into the baskets and directly into the fridge. On day two I took them out of the fridge really early to give them another good 4 hours, and of course then they over-riz ... and a sharper docking knife might be a good idea, too. I can't wait to see what the crumb looks like though!

    In the background there are three loaves of pumpkin bread made with baker's yeast (on the left) and four loaves of my regular sourdough bread - with higher hydration than usual. Lets see what difference that makes...

    Oh btw, for those of you planning on getting an Electrolux dough mixer, it works really well for wetter doughs.
    Attached Files
    "Building a Brick oven is the most fun anyone can have by themselves." (Terry Pratchett... slightly amended)

    http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/p...pics-2610.html
    http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f9/p...nues-2991.html

  • #2
    Re: Boule - first effort

    Frances, we should all be so proficient on our first tries! Way to go. I have an 83% hydration whole wheat Miche going today. 60% whole wheat, 20% bread flour, 20% rye. We'll see how it goes.
    James
    Pizza Ovens
    Outdoor Fireplaces

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Boule - first effort

      Ok, here are pictures of the crumb on all three breads - Boule, sourdough and pumpkin in that order...

      The sourdough has the largest holes I've ever managed in bread so far, so wetter dough seems the way to go. Any other ideas? I'm thinking maybe the flour they sell here just doesn't rise very much... ther's not much choice actually, so maybe I'll go shopping in Germany and see what kinds of flour they have.

      I've tried adding ascorbic acid and/or some malt sugar stuff, but it doesn't make much of a difference. And changing the rising times doesn't make much of a difference that I can tell either. One thing I think I'll try is feeding up the sourdough starter for longer before adding it to the dough.

      The standard sourdough bread is still our favourite, although all three taste very nice. BUT I just want to manage to bake bread with bigger holes in it! Just to show I can...So, any other ideas?
      Attached Files
      "Building a Brick oven is the most fun anyone can have by themselves." (Terry Pratchett... slightly amended)

      http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/p...pics-2610.html
      http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f9/p...nues-2991.html

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Boule - first effort

        Way to go...those look very appetizing...the ascorbic acid would really not change anything proofing wise...it is somewhat of a dough conditioner and gives the bread just a bit of a tang...the malt powder/syrup is pretty much the same seems to "shorten" the gluten strands....and it helps in giving a nice caramel color to the crust...something most loaves from a WFO don't need help with...we add it to our pane italiano but that's about it
        Best
        Dutch
        "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. " Charles Mingus
        "Build at least two brick ovens...one to make all the mistakes on and the other to be just like you dreamed of!" Dutch

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Boule - first effort

          Very nice Frances!. My only suggestion would be to try and cut the dough in a semi-circle around the top. Your slash marks would be part of the finished design. Looks great.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Boule - first effort

            Boules, the second...

            This time I used my regular sourdough recipe with 40 % starter (it being quite cold around here), but with overnight retardation in the baskets. The same thing happened as last time: although I only took the boules out of the fridge directly before baking, they had overrisen and collapsed as I tried to slash them (in a semi circle, thank you for pointing that out krosskraft!) I'm guessing that 40% starter is too much for such a long rising time even if they were in the fridge - that just doesn't seem to stop the yeast once it gets going...

            I also tried some Ciabatta for the first time. Heh heh, yup that's some wet dough allright. Not perfect, it should have gone in a hotter oven, but look at all those little holes! It tasted really nice, too, so that's definitely something I'll be trying again.
            Attached Files
            "Building a Brick oven is the most fun anyone can have by themselves." (Terry Pratchett... slightly amended)

            http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/p...pics-2610.html
            http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f9/p...nues-2991.html

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Boule - first effort

              Keep going France -- this is look good!

              The Hamelman book has a wide range of sourdough recipes, but the basic white sourdough calls for 15% pre-fermented flour, the wholewheat multigrain has 12%, the Miche 20% and the 5-grain has 25%.

              I've decided to calculate back the flour and water in my starter, and try to get close to the right amount of starter. I have 120% hydration for my wet starter, so I use 220gr of starter (100 gr flour and 120 gr water) in a 500gr batch -- which is 20%.

              My guess is that if you use a larger % of pre-fermented starter to flour you will have a faster rise, but less structure for a longer rise.

              What do you think?

              Pro bakers, what do you think?
              James
              Pizza Ovens
              Outdoor Fireplaces

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Boule - first effort

                I think your ciabatta looks great- nice shine inside those holes!
                Elizabeth

                http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/e...html#post41545

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Boule - first effort

                  They look great to me - good job!
                  You're making me realize that I've got to find some time to get back to bread-making too.

                  Sarah

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Boule - first effort

                    Originally posted by james View Post
                    My guess is that if you use a larger % of pre-fermented starter to flour you will have a faster rise, but less structure for a longer rise.

                    What do you think?

                    Pro bakers, what do you think?
                    James
                    Bread looks great Frances!
                    Frances, James.....
                    so many variables...keep working at it and you will figure out which f them produces the result you want...as far as the starter percentage I think it depends on quite a few things as well...we have made a purely wild yeasted bread with as much as a 50% ratio of starter to flour and a retarded proof...for simpler preferments(biga, etc) we have started to use a lower percentage in the final dough(closer to equal to flour weight when before it was 1.5 or 1.6 times the flour weight)...I think that a greater % of starter will make for a great bread with a long shelf life and great moisture...therefore I would advocate for higher amounts in your bread as much as you can and still be able to control proofing...that said the temperature of your fridge for that final proof is a key variable...bake, bake, bake until that great confluence of variables arrives together in perfect form...then try to remember exactly what you did to make it happen...
                    What do you thin CJim?
                    Best
                    Dutch
                    "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. " Charles Mingus
                    "Build at least two brick ovens...one to make all the mistakes on and the other to be just like you dreamed of!" Dutch

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Boule - first effort

                      Dutch,

                      You've hit on a key variable: fridge temp for retardation. Most hardware store fridge thermometers are highly inaccurate. The ideal temp I use for just about every retarded bread I make is between 39-40 F. Any higher, and the dough will blow overnight; much lower and the rise will be too slow. Once docked, a dough retarded at too high a temp will fall. Alternately, some bakeries will use a retarder/proofer to maintain the dough at about 56 F, but this is for about a six hour rise before baking. Don't happen to have one of those pricey gizmos kickin about.

                      It's a mantra that all doughs should be baked at 80 percent of their total rise. This is especially true for WFO breads because the volume achieved will be so much higher than a conventional oven. In my oven, at 550 F on the hearth brick, a straight soudough 1 kilo boule(no additions like seeds or olives) will take 22 minutes to reach an internal temp of 205 F.

                      I'd make sure that fridge temperature management is under control first and foremost, without changing anything else. For boule, I bake them directly from the fridge: works, and you don't have to worry about hearth temp lining up with dough temp. For other doughs, like Ancienne, I take the dough out of the fridge about three hours or so before dividing, shaping and baking.

                      For boule in particular, I'm very careful about maintaining a slack dough that is very tacky but not sticky; in short, nothing actually sticks to your hands (once you've washed off any sticky bits first) but there's a definite tacky sound (like pulling off old tape) when you pull your palm away from the dough. This is easy to demo, tough to describe. It's the total hydration level, rather than the percentage of starter, in my opinion, that leads to the best volume. I had one student here, a bread baker of thirty years experience, who told me flatly at the end of the course, "For all these years, I've been making my doughs too dry."

                      The danger is to change too many variables at once. Slow and sure, one by one, is much more reliable than mass alterations all at once. You'll never know which one did it.

                      At workshops here, we make a total of seven different doughs: from 85 percent Ciabatta, to 65 percent pizza, to 50 percent bagel. I've structured it this way to give people the widest range of hydration levels, crumb development, tastes. It's the feel of the different levels that's vital. If my students can master those seven "feels," there's nothing in baking land that will elude them.

                      Frances, I'd suggest that for a while you stick to one tried and true boule recipe, say Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough. Follow the formula exactly, including starter percentage, keep your other variables in check, then practice, practice, practice. It's important to point out that Hamelman uses a liquid starter with about a 50/50 ratio. Once you mastered a single boule recipe, others will follow much more easily. Your Ciabatta is looking good, but you might want to try to be even more gentle during the final transfer of the risen loaves onto the peel and deck. That way, the crumb will be even more open. Final handling of such doughs is all too often overlooked. Remember, when working with doughs like these, you have NO thumbs, the dough is placed gently, not dropped, and if you can find any way to reduce the amount of final handling, do it.

                      Jim
                      Last edited by CanuckJim; 11-19-2008, 07:26 AM. Reason: Incomplete
                      "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Boule - first effort

                        Originally posted by CanuckJim View Post
                        Dutch,
                        It's a mantra that all doughs should be baked at 80 percent of their total rise. This is especially true for WFO breads because the volume achieved will be so much higher than a conventional oven.
                        Jim
                        You learn something new every day. Thanks for this Jim -- that is excellent info.
                        James
                        Pizza Ovens
                        Outdoor Fireplaces

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Boule - first effort

                          That's fantastic, thank you all for the advice!

                          I haven't actually got Hamleman's book yet, but its on its way... my sourdough starter is 50% hydration so that's a start.

                          This is great fun! I'll let you know how it goes next time - we have to eat all the bread first ...
                          "Building a Brick oven is the most fun anyone can have by themselves." (Terry Pratchett... slightly amended)

                          http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/p...pics-2610.html
                          http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f9/p...nues-2991.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Boule - first effort

                            Originally posted by CanuckJim View Post
                            Dutch,
                            It's a mantra that all doughs should be baked at 80 percent of their total rise. This is especially true for WFO breads because the volume achieved will be so much higher than a conventional oven. In my oven, at 550 F on the hearth brick, a straight soudough 1 kilo boule(no additions like seeds or olives) will take 22 minutes to reach an internal temp of 205 F.
                            Jim
                            100% agreement from me...that is always my target on the final rise...in a WFO better to be slightly under proofed than the opposite...
                            Best
                            Dutch
                            "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. " Charles Mingus
                            "Build at least two brick ovens...one to make all the mistakes on and the other to be just like you dreamed of!" Dutch

                            Comment

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