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Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf - Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community



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Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

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  • Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

    Jay, Faith and whomever else. How large a brotform / basket or bowl would I need for a Miche this size?

    Anybody with experience here?



  • #2
    Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

    I'm now the proud owner of 2 12" linen lined baskets. I had ordered a 10" and 12" but the 10s were not available so 2 12" it is. Dang these things are deep. Considering the 8" brotforms take 800g, I have to believe these will take 2Kg of dough easy.. I know the trick is going to be to bake these loaves all the way through and not burn the crust.

    In June I vacationed in central France for three weeks, and so I needed to reestablish my sourdough starter. Last weekend was my first bake in 2 months and I had mixed results. All of the loaves and were good 2 were great. Nice crumb, nice crust.

    I was using the new starter, not quite at speed, and a new WW flour, so the timing and feel are a bit different than I remember.

    The Whole grain flour I'm trying is "Community Grains Mill, Hard Red Winter Wheat Whole Grain Flour. I first heard of the mill while reading "Cooked: A Natural History of Transformation" by Michael Pollan. This was my vacation book and the book is highly recommended. The book reads easy and is thought provoking, but back to the flour. Community Grains first cracks the locally grown grain, using stone mills and then finishes the milling with roller mills. The idea is that by breaking the grain with the stone mill, the bran, germ and all of the grain separated by the first set of rollers is kept in and never separated during the milling, and so the nutritional value is retained. The value the roller mill brings to the flour is the ability to mill much finer and hold the temperature down during milling, again keeping the nutrition of the whole grain intact. The mill is located in Woodland, Ca. and only one of their flours is available retail and only in 4lb bags. Acme and Master Baker, Craig Ponsford, are using the flour. Here is a link video clip of Craig making 100% WW Chibatta with the flour.. http://communitygrains.com/craig-ponsford-makes-cibatta ..

    My impression of the flour is initially, seemingly, it is less fine than what I'm use to, but the bread results in a less dense loaf with more wheat flavor. The dry flour feel is almost like it's little micro beads of flour, but in dough I don't feel any of this. The advantage of this WW flour is, of course, more nutrition but also the ability to pack more flavor into the bread and maintain a open crumb. I need to keep pushing the percentage up and see where the flour goes with my hearth breads, but I'm already comfortable that I'll be using the flour in my mega-loaves, I just don't know how much..

    The formula for last weekend's bake was. 20% WW, 5% fresh milled rye, and 75% organic AP, 80% hydration and 20% levain.

    Last edited by SCChris; 08-03-2013, 08:46 AM.


    • #3
      Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

      From time to time I find that I need to relearn, and this is one of those times.. Last bake one of my loaves stuck, a bit, to the brotform, and so I wiped them and reapplied rice flour with what I thought was plenty.. Not so.. Because my hydration is up a bit over 80% and the flour in the form wasn't enough, I experienced stickage in all of the loaves.. Ouch!! The bread is usable and well baked, but not as presentable as I want.. Oh well, that's life in the kitchen, and I have plenty of friends who are happy to eat the lessons.

      Although they're not quite as flat as they appear, they're not much better...

      I'm hoping a chocolate milk will clear some of the day's bitter bake.

      Last edited by SCChris; 08-03-2013, 03:12 PM.


      • #4
        Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

        This weekend’s bake was significantly better with the stickage all but gone. This upcoming week I'll be making at least one 1.6Kg Miche. This size is double the weight of my normal bake loaves. This normal loaf size relates to the 8" brotforms and 5qt combo cookers that I use as a cloche in the kitchen oven. The combo cookers, the cloche, contain the steam from the dough so the crust has time to gelatinize before setting and curtailing the oven spring and equally important, the gelatinization allows the crust to develop the beautiful chestnut colors.

        For the bigger loaves I’ll need to review the hydration levels and bake profiles from other bakers. The bake time will need to push out significantly from the 45 minutes if I remember correctly these may need to bake as long as 75 minutes and so the roasting temperatures will need to be dropped. The dough hydration will also need reviewing although I don’t know that any change here will be needed.

        This recent recipe starts the night before with the levain build and a soaker that is refrigerated before use. The following morning the final dough temperature is intended to be between 75F and 80F. The autolyse is 30 minutes. Stretch and fold kneading happens at 45 minute intervals for 3 or 4 times as needed and the total bulk proof is about 4 hours after the salt is added. The loaves are portioned and pre-shaped and 30 minutes later shaped and placed in rice floured brotforms. 2 of the loaves are placed in an extra large ziplock bag and transferred to the fridge for 2 hours and then removed and proofed at 80 for an additional 2 or so hours. The other 2 loaves are proofed at 80F for 3 or so hours. The reason for the differing proofing is to stager the bakes since I can only bake 2 loaves at a time in the kitchen oven and the oven and cloches need time to come back to temperature after the first bake.

        WW/AP 250 100%
        Water 200 80%
        Starter at 80% hydration 100 40%
        Total Levain 550

        Rye 80 21%
        Stone ground WW 300 79%
        Water 304 80%
        Total Soaker 684

        The following morning the dough is assembled.
        Dough mixture
        All of the Levain 550
        All of the Soaker 684
        AP Flour 1120
        Water 840
        Sea Salt added after autolyse 32

        Total Dough 3226

        Total Ingredients including starter
        All Flours 1806 100%
        All Water 1388 76.9%
        Sea Salt 32 1.8%

        Total % flours
        Fresh ground Rye 80 4%
        Whole Wheat 453 25%
        All Purpose Flour 1273 70%
        Last edited by SCChris; 08-19-2013, 08:19 AM.


        • #5
          Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

          Looking great Chris!


          • #6
            Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

            Todays Bake is two 1.6Kg loaves. These are double in size of my normal sized loaves. Here is the recipe.

            The build is the same as the above loaves.

            WW/AP 220 100%
            Water 180 82%
            Starter at 80% hydration 100 45%
            Total Levain 500 500

            Rye 120 21% 120 29%
            Stone ground WW 300 79% 300 71%
            Water 336 80% 336 80%
            Total Soaker 684 756

            The following morning the dough is assembled.
            Dough mixture
            All of the Levain at 80% hyd 500 46%
            All of the Soaker at 80% hyd 756 70%
            AP Flour 1080 100%
            Water 805 75%

            Sea Salt added after autolyse 1% of the Dough 32

            Total Dough 3173

            Total Ingredients including starter
            All Flours 1776 100%
            All Water 1365 77%
            Sea Salt 32 2%

            Total % flours
            Fresh ground Rye 120 7%
            Whole Wheat 438 25%
            All Purpose Flour 1218 69%

            The bottom is just past well baked so the next loaf in the oven will start baking about 20F cooler. This puts the oven about 460F and I'll lower the temp to about 420F for the rest of the bake. The 12" baskets are way over kill for 1.6Kg of dough and wont have any problem holding 3Kg..

            The last picture is the second loaf. It's better but the bottom is still darker than I'd like. I may lay a bit of foil down after the cloche is pulled and I have close to the color I'm looking for.

            My problem with the loaves releasing from the brotforms was partially the new flour but I suspect that Bob's red mill rice flour was part of the problem. This flour is not as finely milled as the Japanese flour that I had been using.

            Last edited by SCChris; 08-23-2013, 03:45 PM.


            • #7
              Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

              Close but no cigar! 3.2Kg at 76% hydration.. I'll back this down to 72% and 2.5Kg.. Too Flat but the bottom is looking less toasty.



              • #8
                Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                Just a layman's observation, but have you thought about cutting the size of your loaf back a bit.

                3.2 kg is a lot to lift, if you get my drift.

                Looks beautiful by the way.


                • #9
                  Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                  Thanks Polo, the loaf size is most often going to be a party sized, celebration sized, loaf. Because it's a sourdough bread it will last for days.

                  Last edited by SCChris; 08-24-2013, 05:24 PM.


                  • #10
                    Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                    Originally posted by SCChris View Post
                    Thanks Polo, the loaf size is most often going to be a party sized, celebration sized, loaf. Because it's a sourdough bread it will last for days.

                    The weight reference was aimed at your disappointment in the lack of spring that your loaf got. You are baking these in your Pompeii or home oven?


                    • #11
                      Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                      Polo, these are baked in the kitchen oven on a kiln shelf under a stainless bowl. The reason for using the kitchen oven is about getting the feel for something so outlandish in the formula, proofing, shaping and baking. I prefer to be disappointed with 3Kg rather than 10Kg of dough.. Anyway, I hope to leverage the formula into a WFO "Big Boule Bake-off" at some point in the near future.



                      • #12
                        Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                        Here is the revamped 2.3 Kg Boule.. It has time to cool and then it's off to the party. I would have perfered that it had 24 hours of rest, but that's the way it's going to be today.


                        PS learned lessons..
                        Always verify the oven temp, when anything is changed.
                        Use a 10" basket for up to 3Kg loaves
                        Use finely milled rice flour for coating the baskets

                        Lessons reinforced.
                        Practice, Practice, Practice - experience is the best teacher..
                        Last edited by SCChris; 08-26-2013, 06:44 AM.


                        • #13
                          Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                          Just beautiful. Love that stencil!!! A true work of art.



                          • #14
                            Re: Brotform size help for 2-3KG loaf

                            Thank you Faith it's been fun pushing the envelope!